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By: Marcel, Jan, Hendrik

Participants: Jan, Yi (ATLAS), Hendrik, Doris, Claus K., Daniel, Guenter E. (CMS), Karsten H., Inge, Pradeep (FE), Trixi (FS-DS), Ingrid, Marcel (ATLAS), Ties (FLC/MT), Felix (FLC/AIDA2020)

Input slides


  • Jan gave a short re-cap on the history of the telescopes, the three columns (hardware, DAQ, Reco)
  • Hendrik summarizes the outcome of various workshop & reviews
    → Key messages: Telescope used by many different groups from various experiments
  • Short Term: Documentation, operation, squeeze out the optimum out of the current hardware
  • Mid-Term: Several ideas (see slides), Alpide is currently prime candidate, experience is good, but spatial resolution is inferior
  • Long-Term: What would be nice (see Slides), Own Sensor development?
    • Ingrid: Sensors should be suitable for all beam lines (CERN, DESY, FNAL, ELSA)
    • Marcel: ALPIDE and own sensor development not mutually exclusive
    • Hendrik: If new DAQ system for mid-term solution is developed, make it suitable for both mid- and long-term (e.g. ALPIDE and own sensor)

Discussion: What can we do at DESY?



  • Daniel: Trigger-Unit is also a bottle-neck
  • Jan: new AIDA TLU works with 1 MHz


  • Daniel: How to deal with different DAQs? Jan, Hendrik, Marcel: EUDAQ is generic, can run various chips already, Jan: modular framework


  • Trixi: How long would Mimosa26 last?
  • Marcel, Ingrid, Hendrik, Jan: 3-5 years most likely, no clue about the end-of-life issues; at SPS 6 sensor died in the last 5 years, 10 spares for 5+2 telescopes

Existing candidates

ALPIDE is not the ultimate candidate, but brings along improvements (besides spatial res.) in comparison to Mimosa, is cheap and available

Daniel: Other candidates: DEPFET (BelleII), 50x50 pitch, pulse height information, but availability poor, slow production and slow r/o, costly

Someone: Moench, 25 x 25, but with ASIC, and not designed for tracking

Karsten: Ongoing dev. of CMOS-DEPFET for DSSC until 2019, camera for XFEL.

  • Has Bump-Bonding ASIC on the back > 700 mum
  • Trixi: getting rid of this is highly non-trivial

Daniel: HV-CMOS, Mu3e → MuPix8, AMS-foundry refuses new orders from science. In principle a HV+HR-CMOS could be thin and "fast enough"

Ties: FPCCD dev. at KEK, 8x8 pitch, ...

Marcel: We need 2x2 cm area, and at least 100 chips being available

Hendrik: Monolithic SOI (e.g. Cracow, 30 x 30, below 2 um resolution, not thinned yet)

Own development

Marcel: Use this as a tool to kick-start development

Trixi: Will this work with Mimosa Life-time

Ingrid: Two-Step approach: First Alpide, start in parallel with novel development; Jan: Modular framework provides smooth transition for users

Daniel: AlpidePRIME, remove event buffers needed for LHC operation (trigger latency), and re-synthesize on smaller real estate

Other considerations:

  • Alignment for 1 mu, has its own complication
  • Mixed Design, Timing layer …
  • Continuity and support

Now needed:

Ties: Market survey of candidates

Trixi: Find out the Delta: What can we have? – What do we want?; and if possible requirements for the far future 10 years

Trixi: In Photon Science: Identify key users and then look if you can also please others
→ core requirements and nice-to-have list → for convincing the management/directorate

Ties: Fundamentally, we should do it! Go for a new system:

  1. Market Survey, Specifications, prospects and detailed proposal ← do now!
  2. Decision and Agreement
  3. Realisation (Money + Manpower)

Felix: Timing is the hot topic

Jan: An extended beam tool for wider community (e.g. calorimeters)

Other arguments: DESY sources, export options (successful for EUDET) e.g. GeV energies, infrastructure support/management

Funding outlooks

Attract, maybe problematic as also European framework as AIDA

DSF: Money for exploration and reasons why not funding it from core? We can get a post-doc for two years ← check

DDL Helmholtz: from 2022 10 million invest → later, R-Weg e.g.

ERC: ambitious in 2 ways

Matter Forum: EUDAQ2 for  Proposal (This fall) 1 Person (PostDoc)

Beam Sources at DESY

DESY II TBF is unique

Hendrik: New beam lines will need new tools → Beam line needs

R-Weg is happening: 10^10 electrons in 2ns every 80-160ms.

Jan: What about EU-Praxia beam tools?

Marcel: DESY IV is coming, maybe with slow extraction


  • Market survey
  • Specs (hard requirements) and wish list (nice-to-haves) for new sensor, check overlap with FS needs for possible synergy (Heinz, Trixi, Allesandro, ...)
  • Funding: DSF, Matter Forum, internal DESY funds
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